Lady Cox was interviewed by Scott Thompson on June 9, 1997.
Q: Lady Cox, there are three major
parts to this interview. First, I'd like to discuss your role in the U.S.-British special
relationship, which I've had an ongoing series on, and I am told you have had a consider-
able influence on through Christian Solidarity International. Second, I would like to
discuss how the change of government in your country might affect the work of CSI. And,
third, I would like to discuss Sudan and Africa. Now, in terms of the
U.S.-British special relationship, are there any members of the Clinton administration
with whom you have worked, either in your capacity with the House of Lords or CSI?
I've also been-in a different
context, in a different arena of operation-in the Armenian enclave of Nagorno-Karabakh
with Congressman Frank Wolf. Of course he's a Republican from your part of the state, I
think.... As far as I am aware, my work with Congressman Frank Wolf has been in a number
of arenas. As I say, he has actually been in Nagorno-Karabakh with us when the fighting
was still fairly intense, and has taken up the issue of the Armenians of Karabakh with a
great determination. He's also interested in Sudan, and our work in Sudan....
Q: Has he been to Sudan or sponsored
refugees from Sudan?
Cox: Well, I think what he has also
done is helped refugees seeking political asylum, and he may well have sought the help of
CSI in the United States [which has an office in Front Royal, Virginia, in Wolf's
Congressional District] in that context…
Q: Are there key private individuals
with whom you've worked in the United States, for example, such as Randall Robinson, or
other people?
Cox: Amongst the people who have
been very supportive of our work in the United States is Chuck Colson, who, of course, is
very well known, and I think he very kindly sponsored me to receive the Wilberforce Award,
which I received two years ago, in '95, for humanitarian and human rights work.
There are other people. I'm just
trying to think of some of the other well-known people.... I just gave the commencement
speech at Wheaton College, which is probably the biggest Christian college in the United
States.
Q: Have you had anything to do with
the Christian Coalition or Pat Robertson? Cox: Well, I had the privilege of being
interviewed by Pat Robertson the last time I was in Washington, on his television program ....
Q: On his 700 Club?
Cox: I think that would be it....
Could I just cut back. Some of the
media have been very helpful for the human rights advocacy work. Some of your major media
networks, and particularly NBC. They came with us into Sudan, and they produced a very
powerful program on "Dateline" on the whole issue of slavery in the Sudan. And,
I was always grateful to them. The film they did was extremely, as one might expect,
professional, powerful, and very revealing of that gross violation of human rights.
Q: Now, how do you expect the change
of government in your country, from Prime Minister John Major to Prime Minister Tony
Blair, will affect CSI's work?
Cox: Well, I was very encouraged
when the new government made a very explicit policy statement regarding its concern for
human rights in foreign policy. We have, what you probably are aware of, in our statement
of Parliament, the Queen's Speech, when the Queen outlines the new government’s
priorities, possible policies, and initial legislation. And, I was pleased to see that
there was a commitment there to human rights and to addressing the issue of global
poverty. And, I spoke in the debate on foreign affairs following the Queen's Speech on
those matters. And, we will hope that the government will put that commitment....
Q: Let me ask you about one
individual in particular. There are a certain number of Labour Peers who are notable Islam
experts, for example, Lord Avebury….
Cox: Well, actually, he's a Liberal
Democrat…. I have a great respect for Lord Avebury. He's superb.
Q: Why do you say that? I would have
thought you would be at odds with him.
Cox: Not at all. I think one of the
things that working in the field of human rights and humanitarian aid, is that you often
transcend party political divisions and share the same concerns. And, I've traveled with
Lord Avebury to visit the Kurds in Iraqi Kurdistan, and have a great respect for him and
his concern for human rights and for human well-being. And, he always speaks with enormous
experience, and authority, and conviction. I have great respect for him. He's chairman of
the Parliamentary All-Party Group on Human Rights....
Q: Now before we turn to your issue
of the enslavement of Christians and animists in Sudan, I'd like you to give a bit of a
tour d'horizon of some of the events in Africa, which are going to have a tremendous
impact on Sudan. In the first place, South African President Nelson Mandela seems to have
failed miserably in the conflict resolution in the Great Lakes region. What other regional
leaders might emerge to oversee this problem?
Cox: Well, I'm not sure that one can
attribute Great Lakes to Mandela's failing. It might just have been an unresolvable
problem. I'm not sure what other leaders may emerge who can cope with what, at the moment,
seems to be an insoluble tragedy.
Q: What about President Yoweri
Museveni of Uganda? Lady Chalker referred to him as one of the few
"semi-democratic," as she put it, leaders in the region.
Cox: Yes, I have a considerable
respect and hope that he might be able to use his diplomatic influence and experience
outside his own country. But, of course, he has many problems in his own country at the
moment.
Q: Are you aware that Museveni wants
a greater Tutsi federation, including Rwanda, Uganda, Burundi, Eritrea, and 52
International Zaire/Congo?
Cox: I couldn't comment on that. I
don't know enough about it. And, I haven't spoken to him about it, so I think it would be
inappropriate for me to comment. Lady Chalker might well know more, because I think she's
met with him relatively recently. I don't know whether she has or not, but she's much more
familiar, I think, with his policy than I would be. I can only speak on the policies where
I'm working.
Q: There is an increasing number of
U.S. government reports, most recently from U.S. Ambassador to the UN Bill Richardson, of
massacres by Laurent Kabila in eastern Zaire/ Congo. These are now filtering into the
press. There's been a series by National Public Radio. Yesterday, in its Sunday section,
the Washington Post did a major expose of the mass graves. It was not just Hutus; it was
anyone who was anti- Kabila. And, they were just being burned to the ground. What do you
make out of this?
Cox: Well, obviously, you make a
tragedy. I think it reflects a very long-standing conflict, and it's very hard to see how
conflict resolution will be achieved when there is long-standing hostility-massacre,
counter-massacre, and tragedy. And, I think at the moment it looks a bleak prospect.
Q: What is your assessment of
Laurent Kabila? Cox: I wouldn't Re to comment on that. I haven't worked in that part, and
again, I don't like to comment on areas I haven't worked. I can tell you I am also a
trustee for another organization, which is working in that region, that might be willing
to commitment-I can't say whether they would or not- but, I know we have programs out
there. And, that is a British organization called Merlin (Medical Emergency Relief
International).
Q: Is that similar to Doctors
Without Borders?
Cox: Yes, it is the British
equivalent.
Q: Well, they certainly have
commented.
Cox: Well, their comment would be my
comment, because I am a representative of Merlin.
Q: They've corroborated the
massacres.
Cox: Yes, well, they've got people
on the ground there. And, they are my colleagues. They can give you first-hand experience,
which I can't. And, so, I would refer you to Merlin on that one.
Q: Now, you have had first-hand
investigation with the alleged enslavement of Christians and animists in Sudan. What proof
do you have that this is occurring? Cox: All too much proof. See, one of CSI's purposes is
to try to reach people who are cut off from other aid and advocacy organizations. And, the
reason why people may be cut off is because the big organizations-like the UN
organizations: UNHCR, Unicef, Save the Children, Red Cross (not that the Red Cross is a UN
organization)-but, the big organizations can only go to places with the invitation of the
sovereign government. And, if the sovereign government is victimizing a minority in its
borders, and is denying access to those major aid organizations, they can't go. But, we
regard as part of our mandate to reach those who are most cut off, most isolated, most
bereft of aid and advocacy.
And, in that context, in Sudan,
we've been particularly targeting those areas designated by the regime in Khartoum as
"no go" areas to the UN and the Red Cross and so on. And so, therefore, we go
to, say, the airstrips, which-every month the regime in Khartoum publishes a list of
airstrips that are open to the UN operation in Sudan and those that are prohibited. And,
we target the prohibited areas, and going up to some of those prohibited areas, which is
on the borderland between North and South, we came across what we were not expecting to
come across. I did not go with any preconceptions. And, areas where clearly there had been
systematic and frequent raids by militia from the north, who were armed in ways which the
Southerners are not traditionally armed. And, they descend in large numbers on the
townships and villages, and they massacre usually the men. And, the women and children
they round up and take as slaves to the north. Old people, they usually just maltreat,
beat up, often leave them for dead. And then, they bum and pillage, take everything, take
the livestock, kill what they can't take, burn the crops.. . .
Q: Are these John Garang outposts or
are these, as you would say, noncombatants?
Cox:
Noncombatants. Definitely. They're just ordinary civilians
living their ordinary lives. In this part of Sudan, they tend to be the Dinka tribe. A
very tall Sudanese, but they're just ordinary civilians.
Q: Oh, that would be the tribe that
Ambrose Evans-Pritchard's anthropologist father studied for the British Colonial Office?
Cox: That's right ....
Cox: Well, I don't think it's for an
outsider to advise people on their own internal problems and their own solutions to those
problems. What we did was, we hosted a meeting, a symposium in London, to enable the
representatives of the various democratic opposition groups which were in exile to come
together to discuss an agenda for a democratic government and democratic programs at such
time as they can regain their rightful places as democratic, elected leaders in their own
country. Many of them were legitimately, democratically elected leaders in their
democratically elected Parliament in Sudan before the military takeover by the present
regime.
Cox: No, that’s a gross
misunderstanding.
Cox: Yes, I mean the Eritrean
authorities have for some time decided entirely on their own that they can no longer
tolerate the regime in Khartoum, because, although they had originally started being
prepared to be cooperative with that regime, that regime infiltrated terrorists and
subversives into Eritrea to destabilize Eritrea. And, Eritrea has subsequently decided
entirely of its own volition that it cannot tolerate the regime next door. And so, they
are committed of their own accord to try to ensure the removal of what they now see as
that illegitimate, and subversive, and terrorist regime.
Q: And, I suppose the same is true
for Uganda, which has sent tank columns into Sudan?
Cox: Well, it's not for me to say
whether they have sent tank columns into Sudan, I don't know. But, certainly President
Museveni and Uganda have also expressed a grave displeasure with the regime in Khartoum,
as has Ethiopia, because the Khartoum regime has tried to infiltrate and destabilize those
neighboring countries
Q: Is there anything that you would
like to add?
Cox: I think you've asked very fair
questions. I hope I haven't ducked any of them. I think you've given me a chance to say
the most important things. I think the only thing I would add, if I were asked what the
international community could and should do, is that I and my colleagues in CSI have
advocated, if necessary, the strengthening of sanctions against the regime in Khartoum. In
particular, arms and oil embargoes, because that might help to reduce the continuing
military offensives against innocent civilians. The regime in Khartoum is bombing innocent
civilians. I spent hours in foxholes, sheltering while aircraft have been circling
overhead, bombing innocent civilians. And, I would just like to see more constraints put
on that regime in Khartoum to prevent further bloodshed.
Q: Well, I believe that they already
face about the toughest sanctions of all but about seven nations in the world today. You
say you would like to see them toughened? Cox: Yes, I would, especially oil and arms
embargoes. Thank you very much indeed.